The World of Woman

A Transcript from The Reasoning Show podcasts.

Copyright September 2007 David Quinn

Guests:  Rich Zubaty, Sue Hindmarsh
Hosts:    Dan Rowden
Dan Rowden
Hello and welcome to the latest edition of The Reasoning Show, discussions of pure reasoning, aimed at the very heart of matters. I'm Dan Rowden and I'll be your host for this show, and I'll actually be flying solo for this particular edition of The Reasoning Show, and I'm feeling a touch intimidated by that fact, not simply because I have two guests who not only have lots of opinions and have absolutely no compunction in offering those opinions, but also because we're dealing with a somewhat gigantic and contentious issue. This episode we're talking about feminism, the feminine and the masculine. We'll be looking at psychology, the world and spirituality in the context of those particular categories.

With me to help unravel the mysteries of Woman, I have two guests, the first of which is Rich Zubaty. Rich is an author, an antiwar activist, an “Impeach Bush” activist, a father, a lecturer, world traveler, freelance monk, unreconstructed beatnik, and former policy analyst for The American Fathers Coalition in Washington DC. Rich has lived in Europe, Asia, India, Australia, the South Pacific, North and South America, writing, filming, trading work for food, and watching how people live. He's been a guest on over 200 radio shows, a dozen TV shows, and has been interviewed for dozens of print articles in the US, UK, Canada, and Australia on his two passionate topics: equal treatment for men, and stopping corporate colonialism. Rich also has lots of websites and has a lot of books that are extant that we'll talk a bit more about those things and how you can find Rich's work towards the end of the show, so for now I'll just say hello Rich Zubaty and welcome to The Reasoning Show.
Rich Zubaty
Thank you very much. It's my pleasure to be here.
Dan Rowden
Good to have you. Our other guest is Sue Hindmarsh. Sue is an independent philosophic thinker who has a strong interest in masculine and feminine psychology. This interest grew out of frustration with normal feminism and its focus on promoting the feminine over the masculine. During the last twenty years she's worked to understand the underlying psychology of both sexes and writes extensively about these matters on online forums, blogs, newspapers, and is currently working on her first book, titled Deadly Illusions. Ominously, she states that she is the only female feminist in the world. Welcome to The Reasoning Show, Sue.
Sue Hindmarsh
Hello to you both!
Dan Rowden
The only female feminist in the world!
Sue Hindmarsh
The only female feminist in the world. But, look, let me say, first off, that I'd be only too pleased if there were other females that were truly interested in seeing the feminine receive what it justly deserves. For the fact is that other females and most males are happy with the way things are because they're happy with what's happening between the sexes as it is. They're in love with love. They don't want anything to change. But, if we could actually deal with this topic tonight, love and its relevance to the sexes, I think we'd discover a lot about why women/men are the way they are.
Dan Rowden
Well, if we have time we will indeed deal with that particular point, among the thousands of others we could deal with, but that leads me into a question in terms of how the two of you came to this interest in these issues. I suspect that you may have done so by sort of different paths, so let me ask each of you, starting with you, Rich: How and why do you have such a powerful interest in things like men's rights issues and feminism and the nature of female and male psychology? How did you come to that level of interest? Because most people really don't give a shit about it, do they? Let's face it.
Rich Zubaty
Let me give you the long answer because I'm very rarely able to do that:

I had a rough divorce, haven't been able to see my kids, haven't seen my daughter in seventeen years, and I was pretty disturbed at how the legal system worked. So, I went way back to my intellectual roots at the University of Chicago and asked one simple question: What are the differences between men and women?

The old feminist song had been that men and women are exactly the same except for how they've been raised. And that never felt right to me; it was intuitively wrong. So, what happened was, something that people on other radio shows, interview shows, do not have a way of understanding. It's called, I discovered, “memes” (M-E-M-E-S). I'm sure you've talked about that a lot on your show. In fact, I heard another show where you discussed memes.

One day I realized that… I used to talk about how a lot of men feel like they're living in a world run by women but they're not sure how it's accomplished, and I used to talk about female values control our institutions, our schools, our churches, our government, but the values didn't express what's really going on. The meme that men are the oppressors of women is a meme, and I'm not going to even bother to explain much about memes, it's a meme that goes from one brain to another to another, and it doesn't matter if that brain is male or female, it's passed along like that. I can't tell you how many men have told me over time that “Men are the oppressors of women!”, “Men are the oppressors of women!”, and I'm thinking, “Where are you getting this?” This is this a repeating virus called a meme. And so I've realized that much of what goes on in our society is our female memes dominating the conversation.

So, I think that philosophically this is important to me. I studied what's different about biology between men and women. Our brains are built very differently. Then I studied psychology, then I looked at mythology, then I looked at history, then I looked at law…really found just 500 pages worth of: “Wow, look at this! Here's another one, here's another way men and women are different!” And it's cumulative: once you understand something about the biology, how we think physically, actually, the other stuff starts to line up and make sense. So, frankly, I was mad about the divorce, but this turned into a whole different thing. As I studied it, I just kept going "Wow, look at this!" It was a wonderful process of discovery for me.
Dan Rowden
So, essentially something that happened to you on a very powerful personal level was a catalyst for you striving to, I guess, understand the dynamics of how it could have happened the way it happens!
Rich Zubaty
For instance, the courts assume that women are morally superior to men. This is outrageous to me. If a man and woman go into court the tendency is going to be to believe the women. And that's not right, considering the history of men and women and the history of the species, the basic evasiveness and the way that women have had to be because they're not as physically strong, to believe the woman in when it's a man against a woman is really a false setup there. You know, I was married and I lived in the southern U.S., Florida, we're talking about rednecks and crackers. These drudges had their women up on pedestals with parasols making the lemonade, and they just couldn't imagine women doing any wrong. That was the starting point of any divorce confrontation.

So, yeah, there are things that are really wrong about our system. Our school systems are designed for women; our government is designed to appeal to women; why there are more women, therefore there are more women voters than men…our whole society is in fact a matriarchy, not a patriarchy, and the only way you can understand that properly is to understand that Bill Clinton carries female memes in his head, George Bush carries female memes in his head. Technically, they're men; physically, they're men; but, mentally, they're women.
Dan Rowden
Prima facie, I agree with all of that. Can I just ask you, Suzanne, how did you come to these issues? I suspect it was slightly different from Rich, no doubt!
Sue Hindmarsh
Slightly different. I just happened to be a female and so it was just pushed upon me, being a woman. As a teenager, I loved the sea, I loved everything about the outdoors. I just wanted to be a hobo living on a beach. But my family had other ideas for me. They thought that I had to join the world and get a job and find a husband and get married and all that sort of thing.

So, even from the age of about fifteen I thought to myself there's something really, really fundamentally wrong with the whole setup. I didn't like what was happening. I watched my mom and aunties and grandmothers and I looked at them and I thought, "These people are idiots! How could they possibly carry on in this lifestyle that they're living and seemly be happy?" And I knew they weren't happy but they were trying to push this life onto me saying that this would bring me happiness. And I knew fundamentally, intrinsically that there was something deeply at fault with their ideas.

But that didn't stop me, did it? Because as soon as I found a chap that looked pretty good, I was in there like Flynn! I was actually going to join this wonderful game called romance and courtship and love. And I jumped in the deep end and got married, had a daughter… and all of a sudden after a couple of years of all this life, I decided that there was still something fundamentally wrong with this! But I kind of crossed that, of course, out of just sheer boredom. I was bored out of my brain.

So, like Rich, because it was such a personal thing, I started to also look for the reasons why this was. Why were women living these sorts of lives? Why were men living these sorts of lives? What was the potential for children? I kept looking at my daughter at that time (I've also got a son now), but I looked at the potential for her and I thought, “Oh my God, I'm not going to pass this onto her, these ideas onto her that my mother passed onto me.” So, I basically, like Rich, I looked into the whole thing and made many, many discoveries, some we'll talk about tonight.
Dan Rowden
Let's examine some of those actual ideas that are naturally passed on and this is part of what Rich was talking about in terms of memetics, which is a very powerful paradigm in evolutionary theory and I find there to be a great deal of validity in it and it's very interesting to think of things in terms of that.

But Rich, you were talking about how we basically put women on a pedestal and we essentially don't hold them responsible for anything whatsoever. And, in fact, we sort of hold men responsible for things that we should hold women responsible for. What's your theory as to why that's the case? Why does that dynamic exist? What is it that causes us to put women on a pedestal and treat women in that fashion?
Rich Zubaty
Well, I think we've swapped mental roles is what I think. It's part of the problem. This isn't the direct Cliff's Notes answer to your question, but I think that we have this societal theory that says that men are more logical than women. To me, women are more analytical than men. I think we have very different brains. In fact, if I were to go into the brain biology, the male brain is more separated into right and left. We only speak out of the left side of our brain and on the right side it's more visio-spatial skills: catching baseballs, etc. We have very different brain makeup. Whereas women speak out of both sides of their brain, so they tend to define things in terms of words, they label things. There's a great difference here. So, they analyze details of dress and style and posture and things that men don't even relate to.

We've been taught that women are more skilled in relationships than men. I say, what about basketball? I say, what about hunting? Men are highly skilled in relationships. We don't talk about it. We run down a court, bouncing balls and juking our heads and giving hand signals to the other guy and we operate as an extremely efficient team whether it's killing elephants thousands of years ago or going to the moon today there's a certain type of male relationship that's just awesome. And because we don't talk about it, it's not as important? No, sorry, that's a big problem.

We're told that men don't have as deep of feelings as women. I don't believe that at all. I think that's where art and music come from are the deep, deep feelings of men. I think women are more emotional. I think they'll be upset if somebody in the store gave them a nasty look and they have this whole emotional flutter of life.

So, we have so much wrong, is what the problem is. We're told that women are more intuitive than men. I don't believe that. I think that men are much more intuitive. Again, where is our creativity coming from?

I'm bothered that somebody in the United States can run for the president of the United States or become a judge or a senator who is never obligated to sign up for the military draft. This is a type of aristocracy—and I'm talking about women—I'm saying how can Hilary Clinton be running for president when she's not obligated to fight to defend this country? In twenty-five words or less, the Vietnam War destroyed my life because I wouldn't fight it, I ended up fighting against the FBI and going to France, and it destroyed my college education. This is twenty-five words or less. The point is I had to confront this issue of the draft. She doesn't, and neither does Nancy Pelosi, and neither does Condoleeza Rice. These people have enormous positions of power and I consider them an aristocracy. Nor do they have to perform hard, physical labor.

So, what I say is there's an aristocracy in America, and we're an anti-aristocratic country. That's what we're about. We fought aristocracy the entire time of our existence. So, for this new class of people to emerge who have tremendous power, throughout all of the institutions of our culture but they're never required to get their hands dirty or to fight in war is an absolute outrage to me, frankly.
Sue Hindmarsh
I'd say that you're right on the money there because it's true that women see the world as actually just theirs, the whole world is just for their pleasure, for nobody else's pleasure. And, of course, they see men as being theirs for their pleasure as well. Men are, as you were just describing, they're just tools, they're slaves, to be used. “Um, you know, okay, you want a war fought? Um, you know, I want more products or more land to farm. So, yeah, you go and do all that.” And of course men are accepting all this. You know, they're policemen, firemen, soldiers, they're in all these incredibly nasty jobs, the dirtiest, the most dangerous jobs there are belong to men. There's a problem with this, though. Okay, if men are doing these jobs, there must be a payoff. I mean, come on, men can't be that dumb. They can't be sort of sitting back thinking, “Oh, I'm a fireman and I'm preserving the life of women, and that's my only aim!” He's not thinking that at all, is he? He's thinking, “Ah, I'm a fireman and I've got a good job and I'm getting paid well, the community accept me and respect me…” So, he is getting a payback. So, I don't really think that men articulate that in their minds that their doing this directly for women, far from it. They really believe they're doing it for themselves. So, Rich, how do you describe that sort of psychology? Why is that happening?
Rich Zubaty
Thank you, because I don't agree with you entirely, and I put it down to biology. Again, I spent a lot of time studying the biology, and I call it “bio-grammar”. But there's a deep-seated part in men that has something to do with being the protector. It's to protect those who are weaker than you. This is something that to me we've inherited evolutionarily. The guys who used to eat their children are kind of gone by now. It's the guys who used to take care of their wives and take care of their children who have succeeded evolutionarily. So, there is a deep part of men that just expects them to take care of those who are weaker than them and that's a great part of what's going on. I think that women probably feel that about their children, but men feel that about anyone who is weaker than them because they're supposed to be “the strong guy”, so there's a bit of a difference there.
Dan Rowden
I just wanted to break into that slightly and make a somewhat cultural/historical observation in relation to that. I think everything Rich was saying is absolutely correct and that is part of our evolutionary and biological heritage. But I think there's also a cultural dimension to that because (I isolate this to, say, the history of Western Civilization) as Western civilization has developed and life has become more comfortable, become safer, etc., the need for protection of women and children has dissipated to a great extent, but the roles of men have not changed, so for me there's another dimension going on in relation to the mentality that men have, and I suspect it's got something to with the ideations of man with respect to women. He has an idealized notion of what a woman is, over and above his biological drives, and even though that comes from his own mind, it's also part of what he's striving to sustain and to protect. And so, despite those changes in the nature of Western civilization he still maintains that role. What do you think of that idea?
Sue Hindmarsh
Well, what you're driving at there, Dan, is the underlying, underpinning nature of Woman that drives all of society. Really, to begin with, we're talking about the ego and attachment and the emotions, what drives all people. What I was going to start to talk about before has to do with this . . . was to talk about consciousness, and the reason I asked Rich before, you know, men can't be dumb, they can't be not aware of what's going on that they are slaves to society. But what is it that blinds them to it, and I'd say that it is their emotional attachment to Woman. Not any particular woman because Woman is many things. She is his status. So, the status that he has in his private life comes from her, not directly from an individual woman, but just from the general society. I'd say also his ideas about life. So, his attachment to seeing himself as special, as being in the group as well, like he's quite willing to see himself as an individual, but he doesn't necessarily want to be an individual. He wants to actually be a part of the herd and operate in a group format because that's where he gets his status. So this is the sort of thing you're talking about or thinking about there, Dan?
Dan Rowden
Yeah, in a sense an individual man's sense of worth, for example, is tied up in that abstraction of Woman, and it's very hard for him to gain a sense of worth purely from his sense of his own individual nature. And I think that's what keeps men going back to women despite their experiences with individual women. It can happen a million times, but it's very hard for a man to get beyond the ideations of his own mind because he has to deny an important part of who he is in his own reality.

Anyway, Rich, I'll let you jump in at that point.
Rich Zubaty
Well, I'm gonna jump, and the only way for me to say this is that I can't even describe how powerful it is for my self-esteem to get a blowjob every couple of days. This is where the rubber hits the road for me.
Dan Rowden
Rich Zubaty
I'm serious. It's a very physical thing, but it also does something for my health, my well-being, and my ability to get up the next morning and go out there and kill lions and tigers. I don't know why that fits together like that and again I would consider it some kind of bio-grammar. But we were always told about how "women serve men", "women serve men". I'm off in a coalmine all day, I'm pounding nails, I'm getting concrete in my hair . . . I'm serving her all day by making the money for the thing, and I come home at night and, yeah, I want a warm meal and I want a blowjob. I don't think that's too much to ask. Reverse those roles. I'd be happy to do that: cook and give a blowjob once a night. Don't need to take care of me. So no, there's something going on here and I think it's more than a mental construct. Again, I think it goes deep into biology.

But Dan was talking something about ten minutes ago having to do with men becoming unneeded in modern society and I think that's one of the biggest problems with men and it is why they try to form their identity in relationship to women. Women used to look to men for food, for protection, for all of these things that society now provides. That's what I'm saying, it's the institutionalization of these things. Now government agencies provide help with housing and food and jobs and money and all these things that men used to provide. So, men are feeling, like, useless anymore. An-and it becomes more important than ever to-to be able to…you know, for some men eh-eh more important than ever to have a woman, have a relationship with them, and have that ah…what do you call it, not feedback, ah, it's, it's, that uh…I don't know! It's just something that men get…
Sue Hindmarsh
Rich Zubaty
Praise addiction! There we go, that's one thing that, yeah, Esther Vilar called it praise addiction.
Dan Rowden
One of the problems there…and you struck at a very important point is the role that men have historically played in society has been diminished, and the loss of frontiers for men is a very important issue as well, but I think one of the ways in which men have responded to that—being somewhat pushed by social memes, if not individual women—is that they have begun to embrace the feminine themselves so as to feel that they fit in with society because it's like it's the only way that they can! It's like there's nothing left for them to do but to reconstruct themselves as women in some respect.
Sue Hindmarsh
Yeah, they've been squeezed out of society even though society is really just a larger group and, Rich, you were talking before about the earliest format of society, which was the tribe. Men back in those days had very defined roles and women had very defined roles, but I really don't see that it's much different nowadays apart from the fact that, yes, men just feel that they're not getting that praise, not feeling worthy of the world. So, they're actually just adopting the stuff that women pour out of their mouths and saying, “Oh, well look, you know, that'll do. That'll do me! I can believe in ten different things all in one minute! I don't have to have any focus in life or any purpose in life or worry about what the truth is or not! Yeah, I'll just go along with them!” And that's where the danger is. More and more men adopting to become women has meant that what we now call “masculine” has become some puny, weeny, ugly looking thing which is really just the imagination of women. That's what they're making it. They're making men, but it's men that are letting themselves be made.
Dan Rowden
Yeah. One of the dangers that I can see there is that for me—you know, I'm speaking for myself and listeners can make up their own judgment as to the truth value of what I'm about to say—but to me the ultimate and final frontier for man is consciousness and the pursuit of the fulfillment of consciousness in the form of wisdom. But that requires taking masculinity and running with it towards what I would perceive as its natural goals and ends and its natural inclinations.
Sue Hindmarsh
Yes! Of course.
Dan Rowden
The more that society is feminized, the more it will fight against that particular movement of the masculine nature. And yet, that's man's last remaining frontier is the pursuit of the heightening of his consciousness, but society is increasingly taking on a form that will fight against that.
Rich Zubaty
And I want to get right back to this and I'm going to really push for reading that portion of my podcast that I mentioned, but mater, the Latin word for mother is the root word of materialism. Throughout human history we have known for thousands and thousands of years—Earth = Mother, Sky = Father—we have known that women are more materialistic than men. That's not good or bad, it's just a fact. But men are always being told that they are materialistic and they have no spiritual life. I mean, the very things that we are as human beings and have been historically for tens of thousands of years are denied in this society. And, yes, that's creating some big problems. That's why we have kids in gangs shooting each other. You know, in the States. I don't know what it's like there, but I'm sure there's something similar like that going on because boys are not being raised into manhood by men, they're just being set loose in this feminized school system, and that doesn't give them the direction.

Margaret Mead said, “Women all over the world are the same because they grow up and they know what their job in life is, but men in every society have to be given a job.” They have to be set: “In this job you're a fisherman”, “In this job you sell insurance”, “In this society you…” whatever! “…you climb mountains and grow coffee”. In every society the men have to be given the job that they're supposed to be there and the standards of that job. We don't do that here. We can go kill people in Iraq, but other than that there's no job.
Sue Hindmarsh
Yeah, well, obviously the most important job in the whole of your life should be to be able to understand life, to understand what it is, what the nature of reality is. That must, obviously, be the most important thing for each person to do.

Now, the trouble is, you were saying before, Rich, about memes, and you were saying that there's such a thing as a female meme. Now, I really don't believe that there's such a thing as a female meme…
Rich Zubaty
Wait, I didn't say that. I said there's a meme that men are the oppressors of women and that meme can be carried by men or women and, obviously, it's not a female meme, but it's a female serving meme.
Sue Hindmarsh
Well, yes, actually, that's a better way to put it. Yes, now I agree with that, but I'd better tell you what I was going to say and see what you reckon about this because I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on this because, see, I don't think actually women are conscious. I don't think that they have the same consciousness that men do, nor do they have anywhere near the same potential for consciousness that the male does. So that's a bit different there again. And why I say this is because women—you know how they're always wanting things as you're describing and they want more and more materialistic things and they want the husband to be there emotionally for them and they want kids to live through, you know, basically spit the kids out so you can show them off and say “Well, I'm a mother!” All that sort of stuff…they need all these props—but how come somebody that seemly is supposed to be equally as conscious—well, that's what the feminists want to tell us, that they're equally as conscious as men—how come these…things… need all these props? It must be because they don't actually have the same sort of inner existence as men do. Men don't need all those props. You were saying before that men can go out, live out in the bush, and be their own man and live independently, but women couldn't do that. I mean if you put her, but she would have been independent and alone for a woman, that's a bit opposite to being a woman.

So, the thing is that men have to accept that they are the conscious ones. They have an inner life. They have that potential to be more than just themselves. They have that potential to look out at something that isn't just to do with them, it's something apart from them, something more important than them. And yes, so they have that potential whereas women don't have that potential. So they don't actually have thoughts per se. They don't have the same sort of intellectual curiosity or ability to reason like men do. So, Rich, how do you think men got to this point in history. Here we are, in 2007…surely, as Dan was just saying, the world is relatively much safer than when we had wolves and big cats running after us. How come men haven't used this ability, their consciousness, and really just gone “Now look, shove it women! We're not playing the game anymore! We're going to actually go off and be individuals and bugger ya!”
Rich Zubaty
Well, because I think, like I say, the kinds of men who have survived historically are not those kinds of men. There are men who, three thousand years ago, walked off into the jungle, and I don't have their genes in me. I'm telling you, so much of this is evolution and biology.

But you said some really unbelievably good things…there were three or four that I wish I could address. One of them has to do with women's basic level of insecurity. It's called shame as opposed to guilt. Shame is when you feel bad about yourself and you don't know why, guilt is when you did something wrong so you know why you feel bad about yourself. But women are much more deeply shamed than men, and you can sit down and watch TV, and it's constantly: the men are stupid, the wife is telling the guy what to buy. I mean, it suffuses our culture. And all you have to do is imagine doing the obverse of those commercials where the man knows everything and the woman is just a bimbo, and nobody would respond to those commercials and they'd turn the TV's off. I mean there's a layer of sensitivity that women have that's probably good for some kind of family relations or something that I don't understand…but I want to get back to the obliviousness issue because that's what you're really talking about here and I want to read this three minute thing, Dan, okay?

Are Men the Oppressors of Women or are Women the Oppressors of Men?

(This is part of the answer to Sue's thing because men don't understand this.)

A woman wakes up in the morning, in a house built by men. She starts the water to boil on a stove built by men, and sits at a chair and table, put there by men, to read a newspaper written, in part, by women…but printed and delivered by men…She nibbles some toast, made from grains, grown and harvested by men….whoops…Time to take a shower. She turns a faucet handle installed by a man, and lo and behold…out comes HOT water, delivered by a vastly complicated water system, built by men. She drives to work in a car built by men, on roads built by men, powered by petroleum, drilled and refined and delivered by men. She arrives at an office building built by men. Walks to her desk, fires up her computer, and glances out her window at a city… built by men…full of potential customers for her service business… Out of the corner of her eye, a table in the conference room, that seems awkwardly out of place, snags her attention. She strokes her ear lobe. At that moment, the janitor scoots by in the hallway.

“Bob! Oh Bob. Could you PLEASE move that table, further into the corner. You're such a dear.” She pins him, with a delectable, and utterly phony smile. Bob, oblivious to the cheapness of the words, and falseness of the smile…thrilled to get any attention at all, from such an attractive person…pitches right in. And as he lugs one corner of the heavy table, across the carpet, she exhales a comfortable sigh. Her day, has begun.

She will spend the next 8 to 10 hours telling OTHER people, what to do. That's HER understanding of work. This creature, who has NO idea WHERE things come from, HOW they are made, and has not the slightest knowledge, about HOW the world works, has been put in CHARGE of it…because there is really nothing else, of any specific value, she COULD be doing.

- Podcast #12, The Rude Guy
Dan Rowden
And right now, a thousand feminists have either fainted or are breaking out the steak knives!
Rich Zubaty
Well, it's the reality of the world we grew up in. I've been in Tonga in Peru, where you wake and it's not a man-made world. Everything out there is made by nature. The birds, the trees, there's no electricity, there's nothing out there except stuff that was made by nature. Modern people live in cities where everything is literally man-made: everytime you flip on a lightswitch…all this stuff. So, as Sue started talking about, one of my basic principles is that you can answer what women want with one word. The word is: more. If they wake up in the jungle, they want a better straw roof on their house; if they wake up in a modern city, they want more appliances for their kitchen. Every single day starts from where they got up and they want more of something.

Right or wrong, Sue? I don't know…
Sue Hindmarsh
Correct! Absolutely correct. Yes, there is no end to her wants and needs, and there will never be.
Dan Rowden
But what's the reason for that?
Sue Hindmarsh
Easily, because she doesn't have any connection to the world other than through Woman, and Woman is by her very nature—you were talking about biology before, Rich—by her very nature is never satisfied, can never be satisfied because she actually has no connection to anything. There is not that depth of mind to allow her to have a connection. So, it's all just superficial. It's all very shallow. It's all spontaneous. Nothing is deep. You were saying before, Rich, about men having deeper emotions. Of course they've got deeper emotions, they actually have an inner self to house those deeper emotions. Women don't have that. It's all just now. Everything is in the present moment. And of course, this is why she doesn't to do any of those things you were talking about, Rich. She doesn't have to build a table, or build a computer, or do the janitor's job, or go fight a war, or be a cop…if she doesn't want to that is. She doesn't have to because it doesn't serve her, or most importantly, it doesn't serve Woman.

You were saying earlier about woman being born fully formed. She comes out as a woman. She lives her whole life as that, Rich, she doesn't gain anything from doing anything. She doesn't gain anything from being prime minister or president of the United States. She doesn't gain anything from being the CEO of a major corporation. Nor does she gain anything from being able to understand the feminine. She definitely will not ever understand the feminine because if she did, she then automatically removes herself from it. She automatically becomes masculine.

So this is why…yeah, she has no need to be worrying about…or being grateful!—Ugh! Spit to chips! You know. Ah! Vomit! Gosh! A woman being grateful!? That would actually imply that she actually had those deeper emotions. So yes, you're spot on, Rich.
Rich Zubaty
I can't wait to read your book. This is going to be in your book, right? This kind of stuff?
Sue Hindmarsh
It's all going to be there. Definitely.
Rich Zubaty
See, I'd got shot if I said stuff like that! I suspect stuff like that but I don't have any way to back it up. I'm a guy, what do I know, you know?
Dan Rowden
The key word that Sue used there was spontaneous. When we talk about women constantly wanting more, I think we have to understand that in a particular way and we have to understand it not in a masculine, reflective way because that would be to do women an injustice. Because they are such spontaneous creatures and live in this immediacy, they don't reflect on their needs. Again, as Sue was saying, they function in the now. And so, they experience their desires in the now. They have no real memory of what their previous desires were. Women are very spontaneous in terms of how their egos and desires function. You can say to a man, “Look, you asked for that yesterday,” and he'll go, “Ah, shit, I did too. Well, maybe I shouldn't be asking for it now.” But for a women it's just what she feels and needs now: her desire in that moment. And that is a neverending dynamic. And it's very difficult for a woman to stop and reflect on it. A man can (especially if you stop and slap him in the head and say, you know, “You're being a dickhead!”).
But it's this spontaneous way that a woman functions that causes her… she's not really&hellips;she's not consciously greedy, she's not a greedy creature per se. It's just that she's completely, spontaneously in the now, driven by desire.
Rich Zubaty
Well yeah, it's a fine line to say that that's not greedy because having been married, anything I had was my wife's. What she had was all hers, what I had was half hers. I mean, and this went to houses, this went to anything. Anything that came anywhere near her became “her stuff”.

What I wanted to say ten minutes ago—and I tried to interrupt, and you know I'm glad we waited and that's fine—but I remember getting up in the morning and I remember going off and having to battle the world. I built houses. Battled concrete guys who the truck hadn't gotten there. Battled drunk carpenters. Battled guys with bulldozers. I went out and battled with the world all day everyday. I come home, and she'd say to me, “How come we don't have a swimming pool?” and I would say, “You know what? If you want to go out and fine with the fucking carpenters all day, that's up to you. If you can fight with them better than me, you can have a swimming pool.” But that's where this connects: she wanted to fight with me and I had to fight with the world, and I really resented that and she ended up stabbing me in the back and taking the houses I built with my money and my time because they were “her house”, because her kids lived in that house so they were her house.

And again, this is why I wrote this book. All of this was so far off the scale in terms of greed and what really is yours. Do you drive any nails? Do you know how to set up forms for concrete and pour them? How does this become your house? And if you look at modern American divorce, it's always the women who end up with the house. I can't think of anything that they're less likely to be entitled to. In Tonga they build a house. Yes, they take some sticks and they put some thatch on it and it's their house, and good and well. But the modern American, Australian house with all this electricity and plumbing and stuff? They have no idea what that stuff is.
Dan Rowden
In terms of what you're saying about women sort of wanting to own or half-own sort of everything, the psychological reason for that is because the world and the things in it are the natural place of woman, whereas man has to strive to make his place in that world. So, she has an automatic and natural feeling that everything is her domain. If you walk into the average household where a man and a woman is living, I defy you to find more than five cubic meters of space in that home that will identify the presence of that man. You just won't find it. That's why he has to have his garage out the back…
Sue Hindmarsh
Laughs The shed out the back.
Dan Rowden
…because it's her domain and his role is simply to make it so.
Sue Hindmarsh
That's right. But I think an important point here to remember is that, well, Rich, you've got a couple of kids. Remember when they were three? Have you ever met a more self-centred, greedy, basically naughty little things under the sun? Well, to put it bluntly, that's what women are. They're three year olds. Totally oblivious to any responsibility, any desire to try to hold any responsibility whatsoever. They're just flapping around and enjoying themselves, and spit the dummy of course when they don't get what they want.
So, in actual fact, they're 100% innocent, totally innocent of everything that they do. And the only people that really must take some responsibility for them is men, which brings me to that little point that I started off with was about love. Now men love women. There's no two ways about it, they love them to pieces.
Rich Zubaty
The deathbed.
Sue Hindmarsh
They adore them. And for good reason, you know, they're pretty, pretty gorgeous, and lots of fun sometimes. But when it comes down to it, it's men's love for women that actually keeps women as these narcisstic, ego maniacs, running around being greedy and telling everybody what they should and shouldn't be doing. So, if men stopped loving women, actually gave women a chance to experience really being alone and not getting their way, then women might actually have the opportunity to start to grow as human beings. What do you reckon about that, guys?
Rich Zubaty
I stopped loving women a long time ago, I'll be flat out honest with you, and I'm glad we're not talking about feminism on this show, I'm talking about women. I stopped loving them and they're furious today, the most strident feminist is furious today when she can't get me to do something for her because she's given me a wink or a wiggle or some manipulation of some kind. They remain furious that they cannot manipulate me. A lot of them hear of my book, hear of the title of the book, and they go, “This guy is full of B.S., I know how to manipulate him,” and they're furious when they can't do it. So no, I don't think that it's enough for me not to love them. Every man on Earth would have have to stop loving them, and that's not going to happen because men are constantly competing for women, and that's part of what the problem is. If it's a problem it's more like a historical fact than a problem, but men are going to compete for women. Even though men have this one attitude about really what bitches and sluts women are. They'll never say that to women of course. They'll say that to other guys sometimes, but not in front of any woman not in any way that would jeopardize their standing with women.

And this goes back to our moms, too, I mean, this is a deep thing. Men's relationship with the female: We are all born female, okay? The human species is all born female. What happens is, in the womb, because we have a Y chromosome, it induces the mother's undescended testicles, let me say that again, the mother's undescended testicles to produce male androgen whereby what is the clitoris grows into a penis, and what is the brain turns into a more segmented, separated male brain than a female brain. And then we come out of the body and then it's an ongoing process of hormonal distinction, but basically the unit of the species is female. That's why so many more male babies die young than female babies. That's why the proportion of male babies that are born is actually more to offset the number that will die because we're a much more volatile part of the species. Women live longer than men. When people used to say, “Men are the oppressors of women,” I would say, “Then how come women live 10% longer, seven years longer. What are you talking about?”

So, there's a whole, deep bio connection to the biology, the female biology. I love my mom. She died recently and I can't believe what a hole it is in my life even though I knew for years that she had a debilitating disease and it was going to get her. I can't believe what a hole it is to be rid of it. And it's not just psychological, it's not just an ideation thing. It's something really deep.

I suspect it's something that it's part of…you know, I'm a fan of quantum physics. I think there's fields, there are energy fields that go way beyond what we're even aware of in this physical world, and I'm convinced that it has something to do with that on a really basic level.
Dan Rowden
Well, part of the reason that one of the effects of…ah, what am I trying to say here? I have to go back about five minutes in terms of what you were saying there Rich about how we all start off female. And one of the end results of that is that all men have a very powerful feminine content to their psychology. There's a masculine component, but because of the way that the human being develops, there is also a very powerful feminine component to male psychology. And when people hear guys like us talking like we understand the feminine and whatnot, part of the reason that we're able to is precisely because of the feminine component in our own psyche. We're able to tap into that. We tap into it using the masculine part, which is the reflective, introspective part of our psychology, and we're able to examine our own minds and look at that feminine component and understand its nature and we can look at females and say, “Well, damn! This is actually sort of what it's about!” We can't in an absolute or pure sense tap into a female mind in a perfect way, but we can do it well enough to understand what's going on there. So that's one of the reasons that men are actually able to, with credibility, speak about the female nature.

Also, with respect to what Rich was saying about how women react when you don't play the game, when you don't respond to their winks and their subtle nuanced passive-aggressive behavior when they're trying to get you to do something. I can understand why women respond so badly to your complete absence of submission to that because you're doing something quite horrible to them, really, from their perspective. You're denying the very thing that they are: you're denying their womanhood. And every woman strives her entire life to perfect herself as woman. And even though most people wouldn't be able to really clearly define what woman is, we all know what it is intuitively, even women. So, it doesn't surprise me that women respond badly to that kind of thing.
Rich Zubaty
What do you think, Sue?
Sue Hindmarsh
Well, that goes for all women and mothers as well. Yeah, all women are mothers, really. These are just women, okay. Once upon a time they might have looked a little bit better, but they're still women and they also expect that you respect them show them compliance. So if you also ignore them! Now that's a tough one for most people. To ignore those women—those women that have raised you, that have taken care of you, that have seemly given their lives over to you—but to understand that they've actually gained their whole existence from making you and bringing you up and feeding you and taking care of you, and for you to reject them, to say, “No, I will not play that game!”

And I mean, it's hard for younger people, but I definitely think that if you're an older teenager or a twenty year old and older, you should be able to work it out in your own mind, that for your own individuality, for your own development, you need to reject all women, not just the good-looking ones down the street, not just to ignore the ones that you're sexually attracted to, the ones also that are very much present in your life, your sisters, your mothers, your aunts and grandmothers.

That's a tough one. I'm not saying that many blokes can do it because most blokes are pretty well addicted to women. But if you can, it's a big step for your own individuality, your own ability to shape your mind, to trust in your own mind.

What do you reckon about that?
Rich Zubaty
It's spot on for me. I love my daughter, but she doesn't love me. But maybe she loves me and she's just trying to manipulate me. I mean, this is really hard for me to treat… But my daughter had me wrapped around her fingers when I was younger and when she was younger. I would do basically anything she wanted. And then it got to the point where I didn't love women anymore and where I started to have rules and boundaries about these things that… you know, I have opinions about women and I think many of the things about women that you've just said, Sue, and my daughter can't stand this. So, she has pushed me out of her life. Just, you know, she won't deal with me. She doesn't want a father or she doesn't want a father like this. I have a son and a daughter and we both have been through a rough divorce and I have a type of relationship with my son that gets better as time goes on, he's about thirty now and he's starting to see that I wasn't wrong about everything, and my theory is that in thirty years he'll see I was right just about everything, and so will she. But she has very callously, pushed me, callously—we're talking about a twenty year old girl—pushed me out of her life because I don't have the same opinions that she has and that I'm not any longer receptive to this…and it's not sexual, it's just the female come on. It's not sexual, it's my daughter. But I won't go there anymore and she hates it, so she won't have anything to do with me, and it's very rough.
Sue Hindmarsh
Yeah, there's not a lot you can do about it. But my own daughter—also I'm her mom, that's all she sees me as—and she can't stand to even consider, she just ignores completely, the person I am. That's fine. I mean, really, she's found a satisfactory way to deal with me and I leave it at that. My son on the other hand is very interested in all this sort of thing. He's fifteen—just discovered women—so he's just on the threshold. Now, he's heard me talk about this stuff for many, many years, but he quite willingly let himself fall into it. I think it's a good thing. I think that young men of this age group—fifteen, sixteen—need to experience this. They need their ego given that little jolt and hopefully, I mean I don't hold my breath, but maybe in the years to come he will also awaken to woman and understand her completely and treat her with, as I said right from the front of this podcast that, give her “her just deserves”, which is to ignore her, totally. Do not live through her. Do not allow her to live through you.
Rich Zubaty
How old is she?
Sue Hindmarsh
My daughter's twenty-five.
Rich Zubaty
Okay, that's about the same as mine, yeah.
Sue Hindmarsh
Rich Zubaty
They're rough. So they're even rough on you, huh? Okay, good.
Sue Hindmarsh
Rich Zubaty
Sue Hindmarsh
Ah, well it's obvious.
Rich Zubaty
Well, no, because it's important to know because it might not just be me, it might be her and her age and all kinds of other stuff playing into this, too.
Sue Hindmarsh
Well, it's understandable to me that a woman, any woman, would have to reject what I'm saying because, like I say, if she was to accept it, it would mean that she'd actually left behind the feminine, left behind Woman. She's not going to do that. My daughter and most other—well, all other women on the planet—embrace Woman wholeheartedly and where still most men embrace Woman wholeheartedly.

And that's why we're here today: to spread the word to stop! Please stop! Because humanity is in great need of the masculine, masculine men.
Rich Zubaty
Right, I call it gender opportunism. It goes right back to: “You want the swimming pool? Go argue with the drunk carpenters.” I mean, you gotta make that connection. But this is the hypocrisy I've seen in feminism is they want all this stuff: they want to be president of the United States but they don't want to be drafted into war, they don't want to mine coal…and they want all this stuff but they don't want to do the stuff that men have had to do to get us there to even have this stuff. It's got to be incredibly bad for women because I don't see how women can ever be satisfied.

Barbara Walters—who I don't like that much, she's a TV personality—said, “Of the three things that a woman can have in her life, she can only have two at a time, and those three things are children, family and husband,” and most women opt for the, ah…no, “children, career and husband. Most people opt for the children and career and to hell with the husband thing.” So, I don't know if she's right or wrong, but she said it and to me it sounds accurate.
Dan Rowden
Well, they might need the husband in the short term but not in the long term. Yeah, once they're established the man becomes somewhat redundant.

I just want to change the subject a little, but not really that much. So, sort of a segue from what Sue was saying about men ignoring women.

It seems to me that the nature of the world is such that whilst on kind of an emotional level in some ways men can do that, but on a practical, material level I'm not sure how they manage to really do that because so much of the world is an expression of Woman. And Rich, in your books and in your podcasts, you talk quite a lot about the corporate world and the follies and the evils therein, but you also make a link from that to feminism and whatnot. What for you is the most salient point in terms of the connection between those things?
Rich Zubaty
This is exactly what we're coming back to: feminists are corporate whores. Let me read this brief paragraph and then I want to elaborate on it:

For over thirty years feminists have demonized men and undermined the family and ridiculed religion. Male values, family values, and religious values have been marginalized, made fun of, dismissed as passé. In the vacuum created by the hemorrhage of these historically cardinal values, corporations rushed in and flooded our brains with their core values which are wealth, celebrity, and the free trade smorgasbord of things to buy.

This is a written thing, not a verbal thing, and it's a little hard to understand on the air, but my basic point is that in order for feminism to succeed it had to destroy our culture, and our culture consisted of family values, religious values and male values. And in destroying the culture, yes, then women got to wear pants and run for senate, but what we also had is these corporate values just got smashed into our brains from TV, and the corporate values are basically, “If you don't feel good, buy this!” And so we live in this corporatized world.

Few people know that Gloria Steinem worked for the CIA. I don't know if we need to go into that in depth. I know it's one of those things that you've talked about before, Dan, right?
Dan Rowden
Yes, Ms. Magazine, didn't it get some of its money from the CIA, or was it just her directly?
Rich Zubaty
Well, it was both. Alright, I will go into it because I think it's important and I didn't know this until recently even though I knew there was a problem here…

Gloria Steinem lived at her sister's in Washington DC. Then, miraculously, she got a scholarship to Smith College, coming right out of left field because one of her teachers gave her a good recommendation. Smith College is where the Nixon girls go to school. From there she went to New Delhi, India for a year and a half and “studied” (quote and unquote) there. Then she went to Vienna, Austria and organized a youth festival, which basically put together the European radicals with some CIA guys in bell bottoms and kinky hair and smoking dope so that the CIA guys could find out who all the student radicals were. Then she came to New York and started Ms. Magazine with money funnelled at her from the CIA. And it was a magazine that was a hundred pages of glossy photography and all kinds of stories about women without any advertising in it. I was amazed at the time. I couldn't understand how this could possibly happen and all.

How it happened was the CIA paid for it. Why did they do that? Because at the same time we were having something called the Sixties Movement in America which was very real. The guys who were saying, “Hell no, we won't go!” to the Vietnam War were also saying, “Hell no, we won't go!” to work for Citibank, and we're not going to work for Dow Chemical, and we're not going to go work for any of the big corporations, Halliburton, Kellogg Brown and Root, any of you guys who have made this war mess. And the corporations were really afraid that they were going to be made accountable. I'll use the word “socialism” I wanted some control over these people because just as we have today, the corporations have caused this war in Iraq. We had then, the corporations caused the war in Vietnam for profit, plain and simple.

Gloria Steinem played right into this. By taking the CIA money and by advancing feminism, she split the left. I was alive during that period and a guy named Jerry Rubin, who was one of the true leaders of the American populous revolt called the Sixties, said that the feminist movement destroyed the Sixties Movement. All this that had been about civil rights and peace and love suddenly turned into, “I want mine!” and it was women. Before it was sharing, you know, let's share everything we got and then it turned into “I want mine.”

So, this was a very conscious effort by the CIA to split this new cultural, social phenomenon. And Gloria Steinem played right into it and the feminists played right into it and it's the really dirty part of their history and even Betty Friedan, who was one of the feminists at the time, used to come out of the meetings of the National Organization of Women and Ms. Magazine saying, “Maybe we're not a radical enough organization. Everything that we always do is kiss the butts of big corporations. Maybe there's too much CIA influence.” She's quoted as having said that. “Maybe there's too much CIA influence in Ms. Magazine.”

So, I'm not making it up. You've heard of this before, Dan, right? I'm not just pulling this out of…
Dan Rowden
Yes, I have.
Rich Zubaty
So, there's something to this that feminism is much more evil than even I imagined…
Sue Hindmarsh
Rich Zubaty
…and whereas in many British type countries, the commonwealth, feminism worked through the government and through what you would call socialism and the social programs in America was all financed by corporations. Ford, Rockefeller—what did these guys want? They wanted cheap workers. The rise of the feminist movement exactly parallized the decline of the union movement. Why? Because a guy who is going to work to support his wife and two kids and a woman got out of college and she had to go to work to support her payments on a Volkswagon and some rental apartment. She could work for 70% less at that point and undercut the unions and undercut the men and basically created a disaster. Our wages—our real wages in America—have gone down. Feminism has been an outright disaster and we never talk about it here. I don't know if you guys talk about it there, do you? I mean, I don't know.
Dan Rowden
Well, not in that sort of fashion very much because feminism has crept into the academic world and into the corporate world and it's become very politicized and very institutionalized. But the corporate world isn't stupid. It can see a good market. It knows a good market when it sees one.
Rich Zubaty
Dan Rowden
And feminism and women are the perfect market for it because of their constant need for stuff and because of their direct engagement with the material world. They are the perfect market, so…
Rich Zubaty
Yeah, every American family needs two cars now! Every family needs two cars now, and whereas my dad was a truck driver, was able to raise seven kids and pay mortgage on his own house, now it takes two people's income to get a mortgage on a house. It's a disaster over here. And it all has benefited the corporations and banks enormously.
Sue Hindmarsh
That's right. I mean, really, feminism is just so shallow isn't it, really? You know, women love fashion, so feminism is just, has been and continues to be, just a fashion. Something comes up around the corner, they'll just become that. I mean here in this country, Rich, it's interesting: there's hardly anybody that actually admits that they're a feminist because it's just matter-of-fact nowadays: women, of course, are equal, they can do anything. You must know the slogan, Rich and Dan, “Women can do anything!” Doesn't that tell you a lot about women? If a man walked around saying, “I can do anything,” we'd laugh at him! We'd go, “Oh, you've got to be joking! Like you have to tell me you can do anything? Oh yeah, what a jerk you are!” But yeah, women happily walk around with a big grin on their face saying, “Yes, women can do anything!” Oh, who cares!

That's what I found about feminism. I was involved, like you Rich, mainly in the Seventies, with lots of feminist groups, lots of peace groups, and every one I went and joined them, and I got really enthusiastically involved in them. I kept thinking, “Yes, these women really want change! They're desperate for change!” And so you'd sit around this big table and everybody's having cups of coffee and they're talking, you know, very animated. And what were they talking about, Rich? Guess!
Rich Zubaty
Men. What? I don't know.
Sue Hindmarsh
Men! Ten points for you, Rich, because I'll tell you what, I was just flabbergasted. I sat there and went, “What the stuff!? This is just amazing.” They were talking about how they could get better men and how they could make the world so that men basically just did what they wanted and we'd be talking about this this whole hour that women need to have everything their way. Good reason! The world is Woman, so everything must be Woman. Anything that is not Woman must be controlled and squished. And of course, what isn't Woman? Men! Or masculinity. Masculinity has nothing to do with Woman. And that's why masculinity must be squished out of existence at every opportunity.

So, you can imagine my thoughts even back then when I was in my twenties thinking, “Well, this can't possibly be true. Masculinity must be equally as important. Didn't we say we wanted equality with men? Isn't that masculinity? So can't we actually value masculinity?”

“Oh no! We must value femininity! Femininity overrides everything! So, masculinity is just a dirty word!”
Rich Zubaty
Who came up with this? This is realy brilliant, this idea that all society is Woman. Was that a Dan Rowden thing or who came up with that?
Dan Rowden
Every wise man who's ever lived has expressed that point of view in their own language.
Rich Zubaty
Well, I've never heard it expressed before and I study this topic, you know what I mean? In other words, you guys have come up with a different meme or a different metaphor for looking the situation that everything is female. I mean, I've always said biologically we're all female, but now you're saying all of society is female, and of course that makes sense. Anything that's anti-female must be gotten away with.

Maybe you haven't talked about this, The Dangerous Book for Boys thing, what a phenomenon that is? Have you heard of that book? It's a book that tells boys how to make paper airplanes and water balloons and bows and arrows…it's a huge hit! Because now all of a sudden boys can be out there being boys again, they have the approval to be boys again. It's just crazy what goes on.

We had a situation where some school in the United States banned the game of Tag! You know what Tag is? It's where kids run around and tag each other. Right. It's too dangerous…somebody might fall down and skin their ankle kind of thing. I mean, this is the drift of this whole deal. It's a boy's game more than a girl's game and girls play it too, but it's a boys game more and no one can play it now in certain schools.
Dan Rowden
Yes, it's too reminiscent of hunting and conquering. So, you can't have too much of that type of thing going on, even though it's perfectly natural for the male mind to want to be challenged and to overcome. You can't have too much of that mentality running around the place because men might want to overcome feminism, see.

But one of the most important things that you can observe about feminism—and there is just the remotest signs in this country of this sort of thing being discussed—is that it's one of the most extraordinary social experiments that humanity has seen. Just to give you an example of that: because of the way modern society, Western society at least, is structured, there's an explosion of the industry of child care in Australia and I think in Britian and in America as well. That's an extraordinary social experiment because as the world stands, children are being parented by the state. Parents don't parent anymore. And that's really quite an extraordinary thing. We all know about weekend dads and the problems that men face in relation to how they deal with their children in that sort of context. But all parents have become like that and they parent very differently because of it. And in my opinion they parent very badly and I don't think we've even bothered to think about the long-term consequences of this social experiment. And it's come about precisely because of feminism, and I'm damn sure feminists haven't bothered to consider it, either.
Rich Zubaty
Well, yeah, I agree with you entirely. There's an incredible book that came out by a woman named Nancy Levant who is a child care…she did child care in her own house. And so, she heard everything that she heard through the children's ears. The book is called The Cultural Devastation of American Women: The Strange and Frightening Decline of the American Female (and her dreadful timing).

This is a woman who pretty much just…she's like us, she's of our generation, she believed the feminist stuff and all this. And as time went on she wanted to be with her daughter, so she started daycare in her house and what she finds these little kids saying and eating, they eat junk food, they watch television all the time, they had these disorders of insecurity…it's an incredibly damning book, frankly, of this whole child care disaster.

My kids went to Montessori school. I forget what it was. A couple of mornings a week…two, maybe three mornings a week. That was good for them. It was nice, it socialized them a little bit. They had to learn not to hit other kids with the blocks and stuff, you know?

But no, the way child care has become now is that twelve hours a day for five days a week and these poor kids are sitting around when the mom's not there saying, “Can I stay with you if she doesn't come back?” I mean, these kids are freaked out. They need that closeness to their parents. You know, one or the other.
Dan Rowden
Yeah, classically, one of the roles that a mother would play, especially as the child got older—the male child I'm talking about—is to push that child away from the feminine to some extent, because there is a natural desire to, not in the context of them understanding the true masculine mind or anything, but they push the male child into some degree of independence, even though eventually they want that independence to manifest as something that benefits them, but they still do that. But in child care environments where children are spending most of their time, that doesn't happen. These male children aren't even allowed to play with masculine-oriented toys anymore. It's a very big change in the way children are being raised and, yes, the next generation is going to be very interesting to observe, I think, because of that.
Rich Zubaty
This is a segue right in my thing about male initiation. For tens of thousands of years, again, women know what they're about, boys have to be taught what they're about. There's been a male initiation ritual in every society. This ritual is tough! The bottom line is you take the boys, and you stick them in a hole and freeze them and starve them for a couple of days. Then you take them out of the hole and then you begin to put them through an umbilical experience, a travelling through a tunnel where they're exposed to hallucinations and animals and all kinds of philosophical ideas, the philosophy of that particular culture, and then you feed them. And then you bring them back to society with a new name and they stand there and look at their mom and say, “You're my mom and I love you, but I don't live with you anymore. I'm living with the guys over here and they're going to show me how to make arrows.”

There's been something that's gone on for tens of thousands of years that we don't do anymore. We've let the whole school system become feminized. We've allowed confirmation and bar mitzvah to become feminized. These boys aren't (a) separated from women—in a healthy way, not an unhealthy way. They don't go hate your mom, that's not what this is about. It's: I'm separate from you. I'm not just a part of you and your world and your kitchen and all your stuff that you do the way we've talked about earlier on the show. I'm not part of that. I'm in a different world and the world is over here, and these guys are going to show me how to work. I can learn how to kill buffalos, I can learn how to fix cars, I can learn how to fly airplanes…

There's a way for men to be raised in this society and frankly it's not happening. We have these feminized poseurs like Bill Clinton and like George W. Bush, these smiling, winsome, handsome, joke-cracking rednecks who look you right in the eyes and lie to you. I mean, both of these guys. That's who our leaders are! We don't have leaders we can admire. I don't know if it's any different down there or not, but, frankly, I don't think so. I mean, we have these feminized men. They're men, they have pee-pees between their legs, physically they're men, but the memes inside their brain…well, we've been talking about it. That's female stuff. Or female friendly stuff.
Dan Rowden
Yeah, well it's pretty much the same here. Was there something you wanted to say, Sue, when we were talking about the child care situation and the different way…
Sue Hindmarsh
Yeah, of course, we all know that children are extremely important for the future of mankind. And, of course, putting them into…chucking them into child care for long periods of time for years on end of course, yes, isn't a positive thing because those child care centers are full of women, so they actually never hardly ever meet any men in their young lives. And also the fact that these are women, so they're basically, you know, they're still women that are like their moms. So, these women are as equally inconsistent and shallow-minded and spontaneous in their thought patterns, if you can call them that. So they're going to actually still be injecting into these little children's brains these same inconsistencies. So, the children will grow up to be feeling anxious and despairing and not sure of themselves because basically they're not sure of the ground they walk on. These women have created a world for them that's not solid, it's not driven. So, that's why when these young men get to around about the age of fifteen, which, you know, Rich is talking about giving men the opportunity to test themselves…
Rich Zubaty
The reverse, really, of [something]
Sue Hindmarsh
Yeah, that's right, to actually push themselves. And I think that's important because they don't often get that opportunity to do that. So, I do see that as a really good stepping stone to learn about their own weaknesses and strengths. But then it's up to that man, that young man, to take it upon himself to step out of society as first, you know, to say…I know that we were saying before about how it's very hard to leave society behind, but there is a mental way you can do this. You can actually start to judge the world on…on everything! Don't take anything for granted. Actually, look at absolutely everything and judge it by what you actually start to know to be true. That is, you figure it out for yourself. So, trusting your own mind, really being rigorous about your own individuality, and stepping out away from behind the anxiety and the woman's world.

So, it's a tough one, but I think that men have that potential, young men have that potential to do that. I think the older you get, that potential dies because, you know, you get set it your ways. So, the younger the bloke—that is, you know, around about early teens, late teens—if he can actually start to feel confident enough to trust his own mind, then we can really hope for something in the future.
Rich Zubaty
I'm not sure I agree with much of it at all. Men's problem is we don't know where the fuck we fit in. We don't fit anywhere. You're thirteen or fifteen years old and you see some guys rapping or you're playing heavy metal and smoking dope on TV and at least they got a job and they have women. We don't have this problem being separated, we're all alienated here.

Let me back up one second to the daycare thing because I want to tell you what this woman hears from kids. Here's what Nancy Levant's daycare kids have to say about “Dad”:

“My dad's stupid.”
“My dad doesn't like to be with us.”
“My dad doesn't like it at home.”
“My dad is a control freak.”
“My dad wants to steal me.”
“I'm not allowed to talk to dad when he's working.”
“I'm not allowed to talk to dad when he's watching TV.”
“Dad never does anything.”
“I don't know what Dad does.”
“Dad never talks to Mom.”
“Dad likes his car better than he likes us.”
“Dad never takes me anywhere.”
“Dad doesn't like to sit with Mom.”
“Dad likes his computer more than Mom.”

Says Nancy Levant:

Do you think three, four and five year olds come up with this on their own or do you think they heard this from someone?

This is where this is starting! This is the insight into the American family and what Mom's talking about with their kids. I'm sure that's why my kids feared me for twenty years.
Dan Rowden
Every husband out there with children will now be wondering, “Is my wife saying that to my children when I'm not around?” And the answer is totally yes!
Rich Zubaty
And he shouldn't! I never said any of this stuff to my kids about my wife. “My wife's stupid”, “Mom doesn't want to be with us”, “Mom doesn't like it at home”, “Mom is a control freak”…I never said this to my kids. This is like, what are you talking about here? What was the marriage relationship about? What were we supposed to be doing? We call this raising kids, what does that mean? It means comparing notes and being on the same page with stuff, not just being self-centered. You know, “He likes his car more than he likes me!” I mean, come on.
Sue Hindmarsh
Yeah, well, because men understand the concept of respect. Women don't understand the concept of respect.
Rich Zubaty
Look, one of the big shocks to me was to overhear women talking about sex. You know, I was like, the pedestal thing, the ideation, whatever you want to talk about, but I was kept behind a screen on that stuff. One day I eavesdropped on my ex-wife and some of her friends talking about sex and I couldn't believe how foul they were. Honest to God! It was a revelation! They don't talk that way in front of men. They have this thing that they have to keep up in front of men to show how valuable they are and whatever they claim to be that they are. But with themselves, as you know I'm sure Sue, they just drop all that and it's pretty raunchy stuff, right?
Dan Rowden
Men do that as well, really, but perhaps not to the same extent.
Rich Zubaty
I've heard them both and I'll tell you that women are worse. I've heard them both and men are more shy to talk about sex. Men are more shamed. Men are not as competent in sex. No, we don't talk the same way that they do.
Dan Rowden
Yeah, I suspect women are more, how shall I put it, openly gynecological about things because it's the world they live in.
Sue Hindmarsh
I'd say gruesome, yes.
Rich Zubaty
Yeah, they're just, like, heartless. Gruesome, heartless, I mean, just ah, really, just ah, you know…I'm saying we don't get to hear it because they don't talk that way around us, they just don't.
Dan Rowden
It's earthy and real is what it is. It's earthy and real.
Rich Zubaty
Nothing was earthly and real about what I heard. It was all these tremendous putdowns of other women. Women are in this whole thing of putting down other women, which is another phenomenon that men don't really get. We have to operate in tribes so we don't talk behind guys backs and tell everybody about how stupid they are or they have the wrong girlfriend or whatever. You know what I'm talking about here, Sue?
Sue Hindmarsh
I definitely do, yes.
Rich Zubaty
Okay, see, that's what I mean.
Dan Rowden
Yeah, we do that to their faces, generally. And then we go and have a beer.
Rich Zubaty
Yeah, exactly. It's not done evilly and viciously behind their back in an attempt to remove influence from them of the other people that we both know. Yeah, we do it right to their faces and that's kind of stupid at some point, too. I'm the first to say that. This automatic shaming putdown thing.

But the hazing thing has a function, and I've seen it on construction jobs. The new guy comes in and they all haze him. Why do they haze him? Because they want to know that someday when he's holding the saw blade or when he's fifty feet up on a ladder or something that he doesn't lose it, that he does the right thing at the right time, kind of thing. And he's gotta be able to put up with wasps in his ear, and so, they haze the guy when he comes on the job. What I've seen over and over on the construction, when a woman comes out on the job: she was the first woman we've ever seen out here, and the first thing that happens is these guys say, “Don't fuck with her. Leave her alone. She's much prettier to look at than your ugly face and we want her to stay here and we don't want her out of here.” So they automatically bypass the hazing they should have done in the first place to test this person, male or female, as to what they're going to do fifty feet up on the ladder or when they're holding the saw. And to me, that's counterproductive in the long run.

The women don't hang around. They'll shovel concrete for a day or two and they go, “Oh shit, I want a job selling insurance to somebody, talking on the phone.” They don't really hang around anyway, but this thing of their not accepted on the job site, which is something we flew an email back and forth there, you know, Skype back and forth earlier about is the women have had thirty years now to move in on this and they're not doing it. I want to see half of all high school and grade school teachers to be men and I want half of all carpenters and bricklayers to be women, and if you're going to talk to me about equality, I want to see that. I want to see that you guys are building this society, so when I drive on the road, I could say, “Wow, this was either built by a man or a woman. It's a good road.” Not just knowing that everything around me was built by men.

And therefore, they should have more say-so in the political situations that involve the building of all these things that we live in. If you're not going to build any of them, what makes you think you're the one who is supposed to give the pronouncement about how to use this stuff?
Sue Hindmarsh
Yeah, so what you're saying, Rich, is that men should take women more seriously and expect from women that they actually do take responsibility for their actions.
Dan Rowden
That they live up to their rhetoric.
Sue Hindmarsh
They live up to their rhetoric, yes. And as we know, I think that that will be met with complete and utter blankness, because…
Rich Zubaty
Blankness? Obliviousness!
Sue Hindmarsh
That's right, they're just oblivious to anything like that. Responsibility? What's that?
Dan Rowden
The reason for that is that women have already said, “I can do anything!” What part of “I can do anything!” don't you understand?
Sue Hindmarsh
That's right! [laughter]
Dan Rowden
“Read my T-shirt! I can do anything, I just choose not to!”

[everybody cracks up]

Sue Hindmarsh
Rich was talking about that concept of comradeship. You know, when you're on the building site and basically you're respectful, you're faithful to your fellow workers because you have to be because your life may depend on them doing the correct thing. So this is really important that men have this happening. But women don't have that. They don't need that. Far from it. They have no concept of respect or faithfulness or being able to act for the benefit of something beyond themselves. That's why even though we talk about feminism being a something, like one thing, it's not one thing. It's not actually one thought. It's just anything you bloody well want it to be at any particular time. So it starts off looking like votes for women—which I think actually was about the only time it was representative of a particular, correct thought, a proper thought—and then it just went downhill from there. It just tumbled into whatever. Wherever there was a hole for women to fill up, well, that's where they went. “We want to be this. We want to do that. Oh, what will we look good it today?”

And so it's not actually a group. I think we give it far too much value to imply that it's some sort of group action. Women don't act in groups. They act just spontaneously, like we were saying, you know, in the present, “what I want now is what I want now”, and that's all. They don't care about tomorrow. Or in a thousand years time.
Rich Zubaty
Let's talk about the voting thing because that is a critical moment in human history when women got the vote. I know it all seems like a no-brainer now, but the point is that when the Swiss, William Tell, started democracy up again after a thousand-something years of dormancy, they had a simple law that if you're going to vote, you have to bring your sword to the polling place and put it right together. If you're going to vote, you're going to defend your right to vote. We can't have this. Everybody else has a king. We don't have kings. We have these little cantons and we have our little democratic processes going on. The only way we can preserve this is if you bring your sword and you're willing to fight for it. So it made it really obvious. I never heard that come up. I never heard women say, “I want to vote and I'm going to register for the military draft. I'm going to vote and I'm going to defend my right to vote once I do that.” It's just obliviousness!

It's this getting rights without responsibilities thing. So, you want to vote? Fine! Then you're going to have to defend this country. Then you're going to get drafted and get your ass shot off in Vietnam, get your feet blown off and live in a VA hospital, and then you can have the right to vote! See? Then you can vote on anything you want to vote on! Once you're willing to get your feet blown off and sit in a VA hospital the rest of your life. They don't get it.
Sue Hindmarsh
When women were given the vote, it showed more about man's mind than women's mind. It showed that men actually felt that, “Oh, we should allow women in a democratic society to have equal opportunity to have their vote counted.” And so it said everything about men, nothing about women.
Rich Zubaty
We would not be in the Iraq war right now if women were expected to fight it. If you were sitting there saying, “Well, yeah, my sister and my mom might have to go off and fight in Iraq to get rid of this guy, Saddam Hussein”, we would not be there. It wouldn't even have come up. That's the other part of this: by women getting their right responsibility in this society, we can have a much saner society.

Men's lives are not valued. I'm so sick of hearing this thing that there's a war over in Kosovo and a hundred and fifty woman and children died. Well, how many men died!? A hundred thousand men died! “But that doesn't matter. They're just men. Men do this all the time”, kind of thing, “They just kill each other.” But when women are doing their right responsibility, it's not just about voting for or against war.

And, you know, a lot of women voted for George Bush and a lot of women were appealed to on the fear level. I will never forget: it's anecdotal but I'm reading this newspaper from Missouri, the middle of the United States, they're interviewing some old woman and she's saying, “Yeah, well, our men have to go over there and fight in Iraq because if they don't then they're going to be fighting here on the streets of Trowlertown, Missouri.” The idiocy, the obliviousness, the ten thousand miles away from all this stuff and it was never, “I'm gonna fight there” or “I'll be willing to fight there”. No, “We have to send our boys to go fight. Go send those boys from St. Louis to fight over there because we don't want to have any problems over here.” The fear and obliviousness, again, this is skewing society so much. I'm at the point of saying women should not be able to vote unless they're willing to sign up for the military draft. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Dan Rowden
I do because I'm not willing to do that, but I'd like to vote. I can see the reasons for criticizing feminists on that point, but I wonder how far we can really take it because there's no way I'm signing up for the draft.
Rich Zubaty
Well, I'm not a fighter, either, but the whole point is it makes people, you know, what we had to deal with during Vietnam are all the draftees, the guys who didn't want to be there. And when they got there they said, “This better be a good cause or I'm not doing it.” And that's what happened, it got down to “I'm not doing it.” We didn't have this professional army like we have now where the potato peeling and everything else is farmed out to people making $100,000 a year in Iraq and the soldiers are getting paid hardly any money and that's what their job is is soldiering: driving around in their Humvees, getting their legs blown off. This is all way out of whack, you know. This is all way out of whack. Put women at risk and then we'll see just how much war we gotta fight. Are you willing to have your mom get shot over this? Is it really that important to get rid of Saddam?
Dan Rowden
For me the most important point in relation to that relationship between women saying they want to vote and the military draft and whatnot, for me the most perfect example of where that went wrong and the actual injustice of it was during the periods of World War I and um, let's just use World War I. You have women demanding the vote and at the same time handing out white feathers and socially shunning in a systematic way all of the men who had not signed up to go to die. Those women had no right to get the vote.
Rich Zubaty
I don't get along with Warren Farrell very well, but he's made this point about rights versus responsibilities, that you can have rights but then you also have responsibilities. You don't just get all this power without having learned somehow to rein that power in.

You know, I see it with men. The littlest guys are the big loudmouths. The big guys are the quieter guys. If they move too much to the left, they could knock a table over or something like that. So, they have much more control over their kind of power and I don't think women have learned that yet. I'm sort of disgusted—I'm really disgusted—at what crude, loudmouthed, just ghetto bitches most of the women in America are. And this is some sort of standard now. “Women can do anything, so I can scream about anything.” I see them screaming on the streets and I say to myself, “If this was a man, somebody would call the cops and he'd be arrested for being too loud out here and scaring people”, you know? I can't get off with this double standard anymore. I can't stand it, frankly.
Dan Rowden
Well, it's the fashion. If feminism ever, ever stood on principle at any time in its history, it only did so up until the moment that someone realized that they were doing that and fell off. And fell back into where Woman properly belongs and that is fashion. And once that happened, feminism has been all about fashion ever since. Of course, fashion's a very complex, complicated thing. You know, some [something] says, “This is it!” and so a bunch of women say, “Oh, we'll here we go, we'll fight for some ridiculous piece of crap! We'll fight to have refrigerators designed differently because the way they've been designed for the last fifty years is an injustice to us because the freezer should be on top and blah blah blah!”

And I'm not kidding! I'm not kidding when I use that example because I went to a feminist website in my research for this program. That website was by and large a serious place with quasi-serious articles and whatnot. But one of these articles, I clicked on it—it had the word “refrigerator”—and I clicked on it and I went in, and there's some stupid feminist crapping on about how refrigerators ought to be designed differently! And I thought, “What the hell is this doing there!?” But then I looked at some of the other articles and they were no deeper than that, really. When it all came down to it, they had no more substance than that article about refrigerators, so…
Sue Hindmarsh
Isn't that right, Dan? Domestic violence, rape, refrigerator design, toaster design…
Dan Rowden
All on the same level!
Sue Hindmarsh
Oh yeah, you know, yeah, that's right. Child abuse… It's all on the same level so there you go. Easy as that.
Dan Rowden
There's lots of good things that could be happening, but feminists themselves manage to trivialize everything they do. And it causes men to sort of like throw their hands in the air and go, “Aw, you stupid, stupid cows! Why do you want me to take this seriously? I was about to take it seriously and then you opened your mouth.”
Sue Hindmarsh
That's right.
Dan Rowden
So, feminists are definitely their own worst enemies.
Sue Hindmarsh
Their own worst enemies, exactly, yes. They can't help it, though.
Dan Rowden
No, of course they can't. No, of course they can't.

Okay guys, well, I think we might leave things there. We've covered a lot of territory. I know it's a huge issue and there's still a hundred different points that we could raise and discuss, but I think we will leave it for now and come back to some of the ones we missed in a future show.

Now, Rich, as I mentioned earlier, you have some websites and whatnot. Would you like to give some details of those?
Rich Zubaty
Yes, I would very much.

My current obsession is my podcast. It's called The Rude Guy. It's easy to find, Several of the show topics are men's and women's issues, and what I have done is write out every show. So, for instance, I think the men's shows are 12, 13 and 23. Those are available in text form as well as in podcast audio form. So, I recommend those to anybody, I talk about a lot of things. I talk about God. I talk about quantum physics. I do a lot of talking about politics and corporations. It's quite a wide ranging show of ideas.

My regular website is called On that you will find the link to my oil paintings, which are worth having a look at. I do paintings of people who live in third world societies, who live traditional lifestyles that have gone on for thousands of years and now they're being threatened by the bulldozer of corporate culture.

You'll also find my books, What Men Know That Women Don't, The Corporate Cult, and Your Brain Is Not Your Own. What Men Know That Women Don't is the book that I've relied on for this podcast we've been doing on, but my main issues have to do with: men are good and corporations are bad. So,, where you can find the book What Men Know That Women Don't, and is the podcast. Thank you.
Dan Rowden
Okay, and of course people can find all that sort of information and direct links to your various web pages and information about your books at The Reasoning Show website at the particular page for this show. They'll find that at and there'll be lots of links and a way to get in touch with Rich if he feels inclined to accept that and I'm sure he'd love to.
Rich Zubaty
Absolutely! I love to hear from people. Absolutely. Email me.
Dan Rowden
Okay, well let me just say thank you very much Rich Zubaty and Sue Hindmarsh for being with us. I really enjoyed that, that was excellent.
Sue Hindmarsh
You're welcome.
Rich Zubaty
I thought so, too. Thank you very much. Bye-bye. Blessings. Bye.
Sue Hindmarsh
Dan Rowden
That was The Reasoning Show for this edition. I hope you've enjoyed it and been stimulated by it. We'll catch you next time and until then remember that Truth Is Valuable! Bye for now.


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